NOTES:

Ludovic:

Welcome to this podcast Roland. Thank you very much for accepting this invitation. I hear you are in Saint Barth at the moment close to the ocean. How is the situation there for you?

 Roland: 

For me, situation is good. You know, being in Saint Bart, where selling bathing suits is a must. And of course now situation is difficult on the sanitary basis. But we live in a place where the weather and the situation and the landscapes give you some good reasons to be optimistic. So I'm good.

Ludovic:

Fantastic. I going to go straight to the first question for you. I understand that when you are CEO, you manage and deal with people constantly. Therefore, negotiation skills are key. How did you reach level and build yourself as a negotiator? Was it on the job, through books, mentors, icons, training? How did you build yourself?

Roland: 

You know, my parents, they had a store. And I was born in a store. So I'm a born seller. And I grew up in a selling atmosphere. And selling and negotiating for me are very close by nature. So I really grew up in that atmosphere of selling, of negotiating, but in a very nice way. Because that's the way of pleasing somebody, to please the client and negotiating or selling is part of my character, it's part of my education. And I didn't really build it, I improved it through situations of life. And of course, with your expertise and your experience, you become perhaps better and better. It's not something that I learned in the books, or that I learned technically. That's something which grew up inside me at the same time that I was growing up growing myself.

Ludovic:

That's great. Dale Carnegie, I don't know if you know that author, used to say that success in business is 15% technical knowledge and 80% human engineering including negotiation. So you share that opinion?

Roland: 

Oh, yes. Absolutely. Selling, which is like negotiating is first, the contact you're able to create with somebody. It's really about listening. I guess the key quality in negotiating is listening. Listening to what the one in front of you has to say, what he's expecting, what is his will his wish. And of course, if you do not have this human skill that you are mentioning, you cannot understand who is in front of you and then you will not be a good negotiator. It's impossible. And for me, it's first it's about listening, then it's about the goal of pleasing the one in front of you, even if we are talking about negotiating, I believe that the win-win situation is a good negotiation. If you take too much advantage, the negotiation perhaps will not last, negotiation will look please the two parts. And the win-win, which is the satisfaction of everybody that you have in the setting process is for me a key way of a good negotiation. And that's, I believe my technique, it's to negotiate as I sell to please the client who is in front of me. 

Ludovic:

Yes, I completely agree with you. I mean, the people with a win-lose attitude usually make short term gain, but long term I don't think it last. That's for sure. So what daily habits have you developed which you think help you negotiate and perform every day especially in this challenging context? Because very often it's a question of habits. Have you developed some daily habits that help you to perform as a negotiator every day?

Roland: 

It's not really related to negotiation, but I have the daily habits, which is how to break the routine, how to break the way of doing the same things the same way. That's for me my job of CEO. So breaking the routine, which is, in my case, the daily habits leads you to negotiating small, but at least it keeps your mind alert. I don't how to you say in English, if it works, but it's really this. It's to keep it all the time, your mind flexible, ready to change things. And when you change something, you negotiate. So that wraps my daily negotiation. Breaking the routine, which means negotiating with the people in front of me that I want to change the way of doing.

Ludovic:

But how do you keep your balance? For instance, because trust can be a big issue? Do you meditate, do you -- the things that you do every day to keep your balance?

Roland: 

Interesting. I do meditate. But that's not what helps me the most. I believe, that's very interesting question, Ludovic. I guess it's related to what I explained before, that in all negotiation, I try to get a win-win situation, to get satisfaction on both sides. And by doing this, it gives you a lot of energy, it gives you self-confidence. And it gives you motivation. On the opposite side. If you negotiate to win, you cannot get the energy. Because at the end, you feel ashamed. It's not a positive way, if you want to try to screw up somebody, perhaps you do it once. But then for me, it's not the good energy. When you try in your daily job to negotiate in a win-win situation, in some ways, you have the feeling that you are doing something good, and it gives you the faith in what you do. And that's for me, what gives me the energy, I try. I do not succeed, of course, every time, but I try to find the right balance in the situation. And by doing this, it gives me the feeling that I'm doing something good or helping, supporting. And that's what gives me the energy of repeating it every day. I don't know if I'm clear about that. But because I'm thinking about it when telling it to you that that's really this. When you try to do something in the right way, in the good way, that's an endless energy. That's something you do not have to work on it because the energy comes by itself.

Ludovic:

I see. So how do you prepare for an important negotiation, especially when stakes are high? Do you prepare it in a way? You have an important meeting in a big capital city, for instance and the stakes are very high for the Vilebrequin. How do you prepare for this kind of negotiation?

Roland: 

So I always prepare, always. If it's important I prepare. And I prepare in always the same way. That I think about the three goals of the one I have to deal with, and I define the three goals that I want to reach in this negotiation. And I do not prepare so much the tactic of dealing. I can think about depending the cases, I mean the way that I want to reach my goal or to explain the goals I want to reach. But I always do the same which are the three goals he wants to reach, which are the three goals I want to reach. And then I'm leading by my intuition, but at least I know, I imagine a frame of the one in front of me and I know which is my frame and which are the goals I want to reach. And I have a big plan. If it's not satisfying for me, how can I exit the negotiation without closing it? And that's how I do. The three goals of the partner in front of me, my three goals and the exit option.

Ludovic:

I see. So sleep is something I talk in my book as an underestimated factor, you know, in negotiation. And you may remember that I offered you a book on sleep. I don't know if you read it.

Roland:

I did. 

Ludovic:

 Yes? Did you find it interesting? 

Roland:

Yes, it's super interesting. Honestly, it has changed the -- it has not changed my life, but it has changed the way I'm living, giving much more attention to how many hours I'm going to sleep.

Ludovic:

Yes, it's a super interesting book on sleep. I understand that in normal circumstances, you're an extensive traveler, right? So how do you deal with sleep and jetlag so it doesn't affect your performance? How do you come fresh to a meeting? How do you deal with that? Because, of course, lack of sleep can trigger a bit of stress and aggressivity. How do you deal with that and keep your cool basically, and I come fresh to these meetings?

Roland:

I try to sleep if I can, but sometimes you cannot. And because of jetlag, because of situation, because too many things in your mind and not at the right timing of your body. I force myself to go to bed earlier. And when I know that I have important meeting, or negotiation I try to avoid the day before to have dinner, or to have too many things to do that I can rest. Sometimes it's possible. Sometimes it's not. I do not make it as a rule. But I try to be cautious with these elements, that's for sure. But it's not a definitive rule. It's not, I'm not leaded by this. 

Ludovic:

Yes, I understand. So I have another question for you, which is interesting, I hope for you coming from the fashion industry. Do you think that first impression, including the way you dress plays an important role in negotiation? Because you're often very much judged on the first impressions you make, and if it's a negative impression, is very difficult sometimes to overcome because this is the way we are wired as humans. So do you give a lot of importance to first impressions, and the first impression you give to people when you negotiate with them? The way you dress or the way you talk, do you pay great attention to that? Do you think that it's important, for instance, that you represent Vilebrequin well, rather than wearing a suit and a tie, you have to basically wear Vilebrequin clothes and stuff? Do you think it plays an important role for you, but also probably for your staff? Do you think that's important?

Roland:

It's super important. First impression is super important. But for me, beyond the clothes, it's first, your face, that what you express through your eyes, the way you look at the people in front of you. And a closed face or an open face, a smiling one, or an angry one. And the face does express your mindset, does express your soul does express the state of mind you are when you're speaking to people. So first, it's not to build an open face, it's to be in an open mind when you're right in front of people. If you're open to listen, listen again, listen, then your face express this interest and it gives a positive feeling to the one in front of you. But really having the desire and the will to listen to somebody changes the perception of the one in front of you and that's the most important. And of course, then the way you're dressed is you super important also because it gives a feeling of “are you somebody elegant?” “Are you somebody fun or strict?” “What do you want to show?” In my case, so I have a purple shirt to speak with you? Because my business is about bathing suits, is about out of living at the beach and it's about joyful and fantasy, with elegance and so on. As a CEO of Vilebrequin, I represent this desire, this spirit, and the way I dress when I deal professionally with my collaborators, or with external people. But yes, you express something with the way you are dressed. But the one you cannot hide, the one which is a true perception is the one you give through your face, your eyes and your body language. It's super important.

Ludovic:

Your attitude. That's probably what you mean. I fully agree that. So, I'm going to talk about the present crisis, because it's forcing us all to negotiate a different way from a distance through devices and stuff. Do you see it becoming the norm in the future with people travelling less for business meetings and us negotiating through devices, meaning less face to face? Maybe less cues to see how people react to your ideas and your words? How do you adjust to that? Because I imagine that you can't really negotiate the same way when you don't see people face to face. Do you think it's going to become the norm and we have to get used to it now?

Roland:

Yes, for the good and for the bad. But yes, it will change habits in all of us. And we will travel less, and we will use more devices and the zoom and in the video conference, that's for sure. The good because it avoids to lose your energy by travelling too much, because it's a lot of energy to travel. It's tiring. And in terms of efficiency, it's so easy to organize a zoom conference, I am in Saint Barth you are in Asia, in Vietnam, and we can speak easily without having the feeling of losing something too important. So it has changed the mindset in that way. For the bad, because human contact is part of the pleasure. You know, I was mentioning that you need to please the one in front of you when negotiating, that's my habit as a salesman, but pleasing somebody, it goes through the human contact, through what you can see in the eyes, the perception of the body in front of you. Everybody has waves. So when you are behind a screen, you cannot feel this and it's a big -- for me, it's a huge lack of understanding. When I'm in front of somebody, when I can perceive the waves of somebody, it gives me very important indication about the person. So I believe that it's going to change the way of dealing, the way of managing. We will do more virtual conferences and virtual meetings. But for important things, and if you want to understand what's happening in the other countries, you will still have to travel. So it will be less travel, but it will not be no travel, it's impossible. Otherwise, you're going to lose essential understanding of the people in front of you and of the situation.

Ludovic:

Yes, I think without the face to face, you have to be careful with the way you negotiate because you assume things including a context you don't have any more and sometimes it leads to misunderstandings, right?

Roland:

Yes. You know, if you are in front of somebody, if you go to the offices of partners, if you can see the collaborators around just to say hello, just to have a look, it gives you so much information about what is the company, who are these people? Because you get all this perception of the global waves of the location. If you're on camera like this, you miss it. You miss a big part of the understanding, which is necessary to make decisions. So it will be less understanding, but it will not stop. I mean, we'll have to continue travelling, less but will continue. Hopefully! I mean, travelling, changing your routine…I was mentioning the routine…My daily exercise is to break the routine, and I have to break it for myself too. So if I do not travel, I'm a sad man, because travelling for me, gives me the energy. The curiosity, the discovery. It’s part of life, I could not live without travelling. I'm not spiritual enough for that.

Ludovic:

Fully understand. You mentioned listening, which is an important quality for a negotiator. Apart from that, if you had a number one tip to give to a negotiator, apart from that, which I think is important already, what tip would you give to a negotiator?

Roland: 

Win-win. Listening, and win-win. If you're ready to give satisfaction to the one in front of you, you will reach a good deal. You need to have it in mind listening to give satisfaction. I mean listening to elaborate your strategy and your tactic, but also the state of mind of pleasing the one in front of you. If you want to please, you will reach your negotiation, you will reach something and you will reach something satisfying for you. Which will give you the energy for the next negotiation you will have to do. So listening to elaborate your strategy, to understand the one in front of you. Listening to your intuition also, and pleasing. If you want to please, you will succeed.

Ludovic:

So by pleasing, I guess you mean being a giver before being a taker for instance, right?

Roland: 

Absolutely.

Ludovic:

Yes. Fully agree with you.

Roland:

You try to find a balance between both. 

Ludovic:

Yes, I agree with you.

Roland:

So of course you take, you negotiate to take but if you do not give, you will not take so much.

Ludovic: 

Yes, exactly. So you already have a long career. So what moments stands out in your life of a negotiator? Is there a moment you always remember as a negotiator because it was a special moment or it was a great achievement for you? Is there any moment that stands out in your life of a negotiator and therefore, of a leader?

Roland:

Interesting. I have one example in mind. When I joined Vilebrequin, you know my shareholder – Maurice G, who is a tough negotiator. He's super good negotiator. And he told me, you know, you have one weakness at Vilebrequin, you only have one supplier and it's a very fragile situation so you need to work on that. You cannot have only one supplier (which was full of good sense, and very clear). And so I joined the company. And like three months later, the supplier asked us to come to Italy and to inform us that he was going to bankruptcy and that he needed immediate money to continue the production. So I was refacing one of the worst situation for the brand. And I was aware of this fragility, but I didn't have time to work on it and I had to face it at the very beginning of my of my job, and that was tough because I didn't have all the elements to judge because I was brand new in the job position. And it was the toughest negotiation because it was a question of death or life because I could not afford that to be delivered. Perhaps what was the most helpful in this negotiation is absolute fairness. I was very fair in everything I said. So, I could get the trust of the people in front of me, I was not very flexible of the three goals I had fixed, I was telling you about. I fixed three goals, I had no flexibility on that, but I had flexibility on other points. And I had with me one of the best lawyer in Italy and giving me the legal frame of the negotiation and the combination of the three elements. The most efficient legal frame, the fairness and having determined the three goals with no flexibility on them. And having in front of me, people who understood or perhaps I make them understand this by listening to them and by coming with good intentions. Perhaps that's what allowed us to exit the situation successfully and not to have damages because of the situation.

Ludovic:

Right. That's great story. So I would like to finish up this interview with some fast run questions for you. So you have to choose one of these options. And if you want to elaborate you can. 

Boutique hotels or chain hotels?

Roland:

Boutique

Ludovic:

Richard Branson or Bill Gates?

Roland:

Richard Branson

Ludovic:

That's what I thought. His style actually fits you better. 

Roland:

The fantasy. 

Ludovic:

Night Owl or early bird?

Roland: 

Sorry, I do not understand. 

Ludovic:

Are you are you more a night owl? So we say “oiseau de nuit” in French, or an early bird?

Roland: 

No, sorry. Yes, I'm an early bird.

Ludovic:

You're an early bird.

 Roland:

Oh, yes. 

Ludovic:

Printed book or Kindle?

Roland: 

Printed books. I would love to use Kindle but I'm unable. I cannot.

Ludovic:

Fiction books or business books?

Roland: 

Fiction

Ludovic:

Bordeaux or Burgundy?

Roland:

Burgundy. I love the business books. I love something very pragmatic. I mean more than fiction. “Roman” is fiction for you?

Ludovic:

Yes. 

 Roland:

Yes. Okay. Fiction and burgundy.

Ludovic:

Burgundy guy, okay. Because last time we talked, you talked to me about a Bordeaux. 

Roland:

Yes, that's true. If I have to choose Burgundy's more refined.

Ludovic:

So the short swimwear or the long swimwear?

Roland:

Short for me. 

Ludovic:

Saint-Tropez or Saint Barth?

Roland:

Saint Barth, I live here.

Ludovic:

Wonderful. Okay, well, that was the end of the interview. Thank you very much Roland for making yourself available, answering these questions and giving great insights to the future listeners of this podcast. So I hope we can cross roads again very soon. And I hope to have the pleasure of working again with you. Thank you very much.

Roland:

Thank you very much for the Ludovic. Thank you also for your questions, you know, to grow up and to improve your skills, you need to face questions like the one you are asking because it forces you to think about the way you do and it's always helpful. So thank you.

Ludovic:

My pleasure.