Intro 0:03
Welcome to CEO Insights, a podcast on influence and negotiation in which CEOs of international companies come to share their approach and experience of negotiation and influence. I'm your host; Ludovic Tendron. I’m a business and strategic partnership developer, lawyer, expert negotiator, and the author of ‘The Master Key: Unlock Your Influence and Succeed in Negotiation.’
I have the pleasure of welcoming today, Julien Tornare, the CEO of Zenith Watches. The 157-year-old Swiss watch brand, part of the LVMH group. The brand has made a great comeback to the top thanks to Julien's leadership.
Right after Julien's interview is an interview of Laurence Bodenmann, Head of Heritage for Zenith Watches. Laurence will tell us the love story of Mahatma Gandhi with Zenith Watches. Don't miss it.
Hello Julien, it's a real honor to have you with us for the sixth episode of CEO Insights. Thank you so much for accepting this invitation. Can you tell us more about Zenith Watches that you represent?
Julien Tornare 1:12
Yes, of course. Hi Ludovic. I’m very happy to be here with you as well. Zenith is a brand I've been working hard on for the last five years and enjoying every moment because it's a brand that has, first of all, such a long history, long heritage. It’s a very authentic brand in all the ways about authenticity, but it's also a brand that's projecting itself to the future. And we've been developing so many things, been so creative with this brand that it's an incredible source of dynamism for everybody working on the brand.
Ludovic Tendron 1:47
Fantastic. And you've done a great job because I can see that Zenith is catching up now, and a lot of things happening. So, thank you very much. I go straight to the first question.
Julien Tornare 1:58
Please.
Ludovic Tendron 1:59
You work for a watch brand? First question, which is probably, to me, the most obvious, is time a crucial part of your negotiation strategy?
Julien Tornare 2:12
Yes, for sure. When you are Swiss like me, and working in the watch industry, time is everywhere, I would say. And when you start a negotiation, it's very important not only to set it in the right timing, if I may say, the right moment, because the moment is key but also to figure out how much time you're going to spend on that because using too much time is counterproductive. So, we have to be really precise on that and think about how to manage that in every moment. Whether it's in strategy, or in anything we do in business, we try to keep it on time always. Yeah. Absolutely.
Ludovic Tendron 2:51
Are you patient or a guy that gives deadlines?
Julien Tornare 2:57
It really depends. I would say, I'm not the most patient person in general, to be honest, but I've been learning to cool down and take the right time to make the right decision. There is nothing worse for me than going too fast, and just because of the rush, you realize later that you made the wrong decision. So, I've been learning a bit over the years.
Ludovic Tendron 3:19
That's great. Do you pay attention to watches people wear when you negotiate? And if yes, what does it often tell you?
Julien Tornare 3:30
It's terrible. I do it all the time, not only when I negotiate. Even on a private basis when I go to an event, to a dinner, and very often in the conversation, I’d say, “I noticed you were XYZ brand.” And so yes. It's really something I cannot even control. Then after, as many things in life, it gives you information to some extent about the personality of the person. If it's a very bling, bling, big watch, very discreet colors or not, gold or not, you tend to have ideas behind it. But I try to be careful on those stereotypes, because today, we all know that people can wear and dress and have different looks, and at the end of the day, it doesn't always mean too much. So, I try not to, but it's sometimes stronger than we expect.
Ludovic Tendron 4:17
And what if the person wears a Zenith watch?
Julien Tornare 4:22
Then I think it’s a person of taste. (Laughs). I'm very happy about that, and it happened to me this summer on vacation where someone came to me to ask about my watch without knowing I was working for the brand. And he was also wearing another Zenith watch. So, I started to introduce myself, obviously, and we had a great conversation. It pleases me, of course. It's a great feeling.
Ludovic Tendron 4:44
That's great. Is there a way of negotiating which is distinctively Swiss, you think?
Julien Tornare 4:52
Yes, I think so. I think there is one word that always comes into the Swiss culture, it’s called “compromise”. And that means that If you want a negotiation to end in the right way, you should never target to have a winner and a loser, you should have two people happy to leave the conversation, happy to leave the negotiation shaking hands, and nobody feels like, “Okay, he got me.” It should be well-balanced. I think these are the best negotiations for me, and, let's say, when I hire someone, I always make sure at the end of the discussion, even if we agree, that the person is happy with the outcome, is happy with the result. I think this is a long-term successful negotiation, versus a very short-term where you think,” Okay, I did win,” but it's not going to last. So, compromise is key for me. Yeah.
Ludovic Tendron 5:43
Yeah, it's great. And a lot of people see negotiation as a win-lose game, unfortunately. So, I completely share your opinion. What negotiation skills as a leader will be key for you to have in order to take Zenith even higher? You think, personally.
Julien Tornare 6:04
I think when you negotiate, you need to be ready also to be patient. And we talked about patience. I told you it's not my main quality, but you have to learn to be patient because you have to show the other people that you're not under pressure. Nobody is going to put you under pressure, you can wait, you have time. You're never a better buyer, or I would say, you're never a better seller when you have nothing to sell. And you have to be patient, you have to show quietness, you have to observe a lot. And this is something I was not doing years ago, so I learned that you have to look at people's eyes, look, body language, to figure out if you're heading the right way or not, if the person is willing to negotiate more or not. I think it gives you a lot of information to pay attention, and to give full attention to the people in front of you. That's something I really do much more than before. I would say, and of course, you have to be able to convince because at some point you're going to fight for your own opinions, and it's part of the negotiation. But if you only convince, you have a chance to go wrong in the negotiation. If you observe, and if you compromise, but you also go for the conviction process, then you get a better outcome. These are things that I try to keep in mind all the time. Yeah.
Ludovic Tendron 7:28
To be a good listener and observant.
Julien Tornare 7:32
Absolutely. Listening is so powerful, and silence is so powerful. And again, I know I'm sometimes trying to speak to fill the gap, but sometimes you have to create the silence. It's quite powerful.
Ludovic Tendron 7:45
Yeah, that's true. Very true. What are your most successful and toughest negotiations since you started your career? Do you have any example? Nothing confidential, of course.
Julien Tornare 7:56
No, no. There've been quite a few. Maybe with my wife, these are the toughest negotiations.
Ludovic Tendron 8:04
(Laughs)
Julien Tornare 8:05
But no…
Ludovic Tendron 8:05
Would it be the toughest or the most successful? That's the question.
Julien Tornare 8:11
(Laughs) No. Probably some negotiations I had in China with the landlords. Because you have negotiation to get a certain space, or certain locations for your boutique that you want to have. And you need to convince that your brand is going to be the good one, that they're going to also make money with your brand. And it's not always easy because when you are in the middle of China, often, you're facing many people. So, you have a number disadvantage at some point. You definitely have a cultural and, of course, language difficulty. So, you have to compose with all these elements. And I think Chinese for me are really among the best negotiators I've met. And I remember some that took me a lot of time. At the end of the day, I think, again, compromise was key because if I was standing on my positions, my initial positions, it would go nowhere. And these are probably the toughest because they also have a lot of time, and they let you go around for hours unless you ask for an outcome. So, these were the toughest, probably.
Ludovic Tendron 9:26
And is there a negotiation you're the most proud of? Maybe your appointment as CEO of Zenith?
Julien Tornare 9:37
Yeah. You know with Jean-Claude Biver it's never an easy… He's a very good negotiator as well. But I wouldn't say that because we kind of agree pretty quickly. No, I think I don't have a particular example. No, I don't have a particular one of that one.
Ludovic Tendron 9:56
No worries. No worries. It's okay. Trust is considered as a precondition to doing business, how do you think is the best way to build trust with people? How do you gain the trust of people? When you sell, when you negotiate on a personal level, is there anything you pay attention to? Or, you focus on, maybe, in order to gain that trust? You already work for a well-known brand, so I guess that helps when you give your business card, but if there’s anything you do extra eventually?
Julien Tornare 10:33
Yes, of course. I think you have your experience, you have your network. People might know who you are, so they kind of know already, more or less, your reputation. But each time you meet someone, you have to think that you start from zero, and that's usually the way I do. So, why would you trust me? Okay, you read about me, you heard things about me -- hopefully good ones -- but are you going to trust me? I'm not so sure. So, I always start from the beginning. And again, giving my full attention, showing people my interest. And, of course, making commitment that I will hold, because people might trust you once, but if you don't respect what you said, if you change, if you modify things in the back of the person, this is gone forever. And the trust will take probably a few moments to be gained, but it can be lost in a second. So, I try to be very careful on this. To make sure that once you start building it, you go all the way and you don't stop in the middle. And within a negotiation, it could be tough, because sometimes you have to play a bit. You want to play tricks, but it's often a short-term strategy, and I really believe trust is key. I always tell my people working next to me that I'm someone very loyal, but I'm very tough on people who would not be loyal to me. I really hate that. So, I think it's in one way. You want to go this way; it works. You go the other way, it's never going to be okay. So that's something I'm very clear on the rules from the beginning. That helps, because people believe that you have your own convictions, you have your own values, and it makes them feel “Okay, this is the field we're going to play.”
Ludovic Tendron 12:24
Yeah. There's a quote from Zig Ziglar that I like. He says, “If people like you, they’ll listen to you. If they trust you, they’ll do business with you.” I think it summarizes well, right?
Julien Tornare 12:36
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a very good one. Yeah, it's really the mindset I have. Yeah. True.
Ludovic Tendron 12:44
If you had one piece of advice to give to the future generation of negotiators, these young people joining your team, etc. What would it be?
Julien Tornare 12:53
I would easily say be yourself. Just be yourself. Don't pretend to be someone you're not. Don't try to fake it because, again, with experience, you learn, and some people are better than others to see when people are faking. But, I think, overall, we find out at some point, and there is nothing worse. If you don't have the answer, don't give the answer. If you think but you're not sure, say you think but you're not sure. Don't try always to have answers for everything to be the first in class. I think people appreciate authenticity, honesty, and we all know we have strengths and weaknesses. But I like also when someone shows me his or her weaknesses because we all tend to show the best of ourselves which is natural, but I think when someone tells you a weakness, it's actually a sign of strength to my perception. So I think; be yourself. Be yourself, be natural, and trust will be gained automatically.
Ludovic Tendron 13:52
That's good advice. Do you have any daily routine that keeps you grounded, and balanced every day? I imagine you're a very busy businessman traveling, how do you keep your balance, and basically, be at the top every day? Do you have any routine that you keep every day (apart from drinking wine)? (Laughs)
Julien Tornare 14:15
Yeah, exactly. Not in the morning but later. Yes, I do, of course. Again, to be transparent, I'm not at the top every day. Obviously, I would be fake to tell you I am. So I'm trying to be when I wake up, sometimes I'm feeling better than other days, of course, but I try to have a few things. When I wake up, I like to get something done because there is no worse feeling for me than when I feel I've been wasting my time, and again, here, personal basis but my wife tells me that I'm a bit hyperactive, but I take it the right way. I take it the way that I don't like not to do anything. So, when I wake up, I really want to have one thing done. One thing achieved. Usually, I do my bed immediately, because I think once it's done, you have a clean, nice bed, and it's perfect. And you say, “Okay, this is the first thing I've been doing in the day.” Already, it's not the last day to some extent. But I do it even in the hotels, everywhere. I wake up, I put my bed, and then, I'm going to shower, and I get ready, and I go to my, I would say, routine. Then I usually like to have lemon juice with water every day. That's a habit also. And if I don't have it, I don't feel I'm getting focused the way I should. It's a bit like sports people, they have so many little things, little habits to do before they perform. For me, when I wake up, I need to get that done. And then, I'm ready, then I can go coffee and the rest. But these two are, I would say, really every day, every day systematically.
Ludovic Tendron 15:52
Makes you feel better and in control.
Julien Tornare 15:57
Yes, of course. First, I’m happy because I've done something, and then, I got this kind of energy boost which helps me to be up to speed.
Ludovic Tendron 16:07
That's great. Do you believe in the metaverse and do you think that we'll all be negotiating with avatars in the future? We can it see more and more, probably not negotiation at this stage, although I know people who have been attending negotiations with avatar, but we saw Facebook investing so much in this technology. I know that it's also in the luxury business. We can see that things are being developed in partnerships with not only the metaverse, but video games, platforms, and stuff. Do you think that it's the future, and one day, we'll be spending more time in this virtual world and negotiating through avatars?
Julien Tornare 17:02
Yes. Honestly, I really believe we should think this is going to be a big part in the future because, again, to anticipate the future, I like to look in the past. And I remember discussions I had with my grandfather that I was very close with that was telling me about planes, and phones, and things that were so life-changing for them at that time. And I remember me as a kid imagining one day that we could call each other, looking at each other like we're doing now, that was a fantasy. And here, we can talk together almost as if we were in the same room, which is already something incredible. If you think about the cellphone and what you basically get as a source of information on any topic in this little thing here that we all have, it's such an evolution that today telling you that we're not going to use a lot of these virtual environments and metaverse, I think I will become very old If I was saying that. I strongly believe we will. And when you look at today's problematic of traveling, of pollution and all that, that's going to be also a way to maybe reduce the traveling of people to be able to buy online, but to really enter a boutique, this is for me the future of e-commerce. Today you can already buy anything, more or less, online, but tomorrow, if I can literally step into a boutique from here, from my desk, I guess it's the future of luxury. Absolutely.
Ludovic Tendron 18:38
Interesting. Apparently, the computer system in our phone is actually more powerful than the one that sent the first man to the moon, which is just unbelievable.
Julien Tornare 18:48
Yeah. It's totally incredible. Yeah.
Ludovic Tendron 18:51
It's interesting to see these partnerships and these new things developing within actually the luxury industry. So, it was great to have your opinion. Now I have speedrun questions for you. You wanted to say something more?
Julien Tornare 19:08
No. I wanted to say that it's clear, it's here, it's ahead of us. But it's not going to replace totally, of course, the in-store experience, the contact that you have people to people because this is unique, and I think no machine can fully replace that. I think it's going to be a compliment the same way e-commerce is now completing the retail or the wholesale experience. I think it's going to be an additional, but don't get me wrong, I don't believe it's going to replace. The priority, even young people today, they still appreciate to have one-to-one and physical interaction, I would say great.
Ludovic Tendron 19:47
Mm-hmm. I agree. So, speed run questions for you. The answers should be very short. The first one will be
Burgundy or Bordeaux? I know you like wine.
Julien Tornare 29:57
Still Bordeaux. (Laughs) I'm learning Burgundy, but it's more Bordeaux.
Ludovic Tendron 20:03
Interesting. What is your favorite movie character, if you have one?
Julien Tornare 20:12
My favorite movie…I like Batman.
Ludovic Tendron 20:19
Okay. You can elaborate if you want, no problem. One subject you would like to learn more about.
Julien Tornare 20:30
Cooking.
Ludovic Tendron 20:32
(Laughs) It goes well with drinking.
Julien Tornare 20:34
Yes, and I love cooking, but I'm not so good. And when I meet people who are great cooks and I taste their dishes, I'm really very, very in admiration. So, I would love to do that.
Ludovic Tendron 20:45
What is on the top of your bucket list?
Julien Tornare 20:51
Oh, I have a long one. I tried to kill it when I'm flying. On top of it, because I have a lot of things, on top of it... Yeah. I've done already a few extreme sports, and I'd like to jump out of a plane with a parachute. This is something I should do hopefully quite soon.
Ludovic Tendron 21:17
Oh. So, you haven't done it yet. Okay.
Julien Tornare 21:19
No. This one, not yet.
Ludovic Tendron 21:23
Good. What is the best advice you have ever received?
Julien Tornare 21:25
I would say probably… Oh, la, la. I’ve got a few in my mind. I would say; keep grounded. Keep grounded. Always keep grounded.
Ludovic Tendron 21:42
Okay. What is your favorite board game, if you have one?
Julien Tornare 21:46
My favorite?
Ludovic Tendron 21:47
Board game?
Julien Tornare 21:49
Board… Ah. You mean… Okay. Chess
Ludovic Tendron 21:52
Chess.
Julien Tornare 21:53
Yes, for sure.
Ludovic Tendron 21:55
You like chess?
Julien Tornare 21:56
I love to play. I'm not so good, but I enjoy it a lot. I get beaten up by my kids now, but I love to do it.
Ludovic Tendron 22:02
(Laughs) Would you travel…
Julien Tornare 22:04
It’s very relaxing. Very relaxing for me.
Ludovic Tendron 22:09
Yeah, I like playing too. Would you travel in the past or in the future?
Julien Tornare 22:14
I think in the past. I would love that because I think the past gives you the opportunity to better understand where you are and where you go. So I would be very curious to learn more about the past by myself. Not only to read books or look at TV shows, but to go there and find out. And I like to keep the surprise also for the future.
Ludovic Tendron 22:36
Mm-hmm. What is your guilty pleasure?
Julien Tornare 22:41
Chocolate. I'm terrible.
Ludovic Tendron 22:46
And what is your favorite watch model?
Julien Tornare 22:51
It's probably the Zenith Chronomaster; the manufacture edition with all the three sub-dials, because we found the dial in the manufacture, it had never been commercialized. And the fact that we relaunched it the way we did was something very special to me. Yeah.
Ludovic Tendron 23:12
Wonderful. So that's it. That was our interview. Thank you so much for attending and accepting this invitation, and for your insights on negotiation and influence. I just wish you the very best and the very best for Zenith. And hope we can share a glass of wine and have Burgundy, or Bordeaux in the near future.
Julien Tornare 23:36
With pleasure, Ludovic. Thank you very much. Very interesting, great questions, and always a good time with you. So, thank you, and let's get to meet soon. Thank you.
Ludovic Tendron 23:45
Thank you. Hello, Laurence. How are you today? Thank you for being with us.
Laurence Bodenmann 23:53
Thank you. I'm very fine. Thank you for having me on this podcast.
Ludovic Tendron 23:59
Our pleasure. So you're the head of heritage for Zenith Watches. Could you tell us more about your job?
Laurence Bodenmann 24:07
Yes, with pleasure. This job is actually about understanding and making sense of what was done over Zenith’s highly rich history, to inform the community about what they have on their wrists or in their collections. And also, participate with my colleagues in developing what could be done next with regard to this history, and also to the Zenith identity while trying to project it in the future.
Ludovic Tendron 24:42
I see. Very interesting job. So we all remember Mahatma Gandhi as a self-sufficient man living a simple life, however, he was carrying a valuable item on him every day; a Zenith watch. Can you tell us more about it? How did Gandhi get this watch?
Laurence Bodenmann 25:04
Gandhi had this Zenith watch which was very dear to him, and this watch was given to him by Indira Nehru, his friend, and the daughter of India's Prime Minister, first prime minister; Jawaharlal Nehru, who was also a companion of struggle of Gandhi to fight for independence and also people's rights to be acknowledged as equals no matter what.
Ludovic Tendron 25:38
It was given to him as a present or for his birthday? You know in which…?
Laurence Bodenmann 25:44
As a present. He mentions it in his journal as having received this gift from Indira Nehru.
Ludovic Tendron 25:55
So, what kind of watch was it?
Laurence Bodenmann 25:59
The watch was actually an alarm pocket watch. The kind of watch with which you could wake up every day with. And it had an interesting alarm mechanism, patented alarm clock mechanism in there with a design that was different to other pocket watches. The hinge was at noon instead of six, so that you could set it upright on your nightstand. And by doing so, the table of the nightstand would be used as a soundboard for the alarm to sound more clearly in the morning. And it also had luminescent numerals, oversights numerals so that you could better read time at night. And that was this watch which was so dear to Gandhi, and which he talks about in his journals on peculiar incident that happened to him in 1947 where with him on his way to Kanpur on the train, and the watch was, to his bitter regrets, stolen from him. Now, the story is not over. That's when he first mentions it in his journal, by saying that he regrets so much having lost this watch, but the story, like I was saying, is not over. Six months later, he mentions the watch again, by saying that the thief, now in New Delhi, had found him and given his back the watch filled with remorse, and begging for forgiveness. So, that's the story about this watch which we could almost say was a karmic watch.
Ludovic Tendron 28:12
That's a very, very nice story. Does the watch still exist? Who owns it now?
Laurence Bodenmann 28:19
The watch still exists. It actually was given by Gandhi to his granddaughter when he passed. And from this point, it eventually ended up in private collections from where it resurfaced in 2009 at an auction where it was sold to an Indian billionaire at the time with the bowl of Gandhi, his sandals, and his famous round glasses for 1.8 Millions dollar. So that means more than…
Ludovic Tendron 29:03
The whole thing or the watch?
Laurence Bodenmann 29:05
The whole thing, which means more than two millions when you include the premium. And, from then, it disappeared again being in a private collection until it will next resurface.
Ludovic Tendron 29:22
Very interesting. And if it resurfaces, will you like and would you be capable of buying it for the collection of Zenith?
Laurence Bodenmann 29:32
Well, of course.
Ludovic Tendron 29:34
It could be a priority, I would imagine.
Laurence Bodenmann 29:39
It's part of India's heritage first, and its connection to Zenith. So, we're equally happy if it remains in India's heritage, of course, but it's a valuable Zenith heritage as well.
Ludovic Tendron 29:58
Does Zenith buy watches at auctions sometimes? Old models for its own collection? Do you have a museum somewhere, or do you grab these watches from time to time because they're unique?
Laurence Bodenmann 30:10
We do have a big collection of Zenith watches to tell the history of our firm, our museum. And we do participate, indeed, in purchasing some of the Zenith watches that are the most iconic to tell the story, and this might happen in auctions. So we do participate sometimes in auctions, but it's more participating in following what the community is actually interested in at the time of the auctions. It's very interesting to see what kind of icons they're identifying themselves, next to what the museum also recognizes as being iconic.
Ludovic Tendron 31:09
Interesting. So there are many other celebrities known for having owned a Zenith watch, can you mention some of them?
Laurence Bodenmann 31:18
Zenith was indeed worn by many celebrities over its rich history, and head of states, and so on. Among them, the more important are the ones that fought for what they believed in such as French aviator, Blériot, for example, who had struggled so much to cross the channel by air, or Caroline Rémy, a French journalist and a writer who was also one of the first women to have run a newspaper and is very well known for having fought for women's right to vote at the very beginning of the 20th century. So, they were also Danish explorer Amundsen, the prince of Monaco was also very famous for his oceanographic studies. And more recently, Baumgartner…
Ludovic Tendron 32:29
Bill Clinton?
Laurence Bodenmann 32:32
I’m sorry?
Ludovic Tendron 32:33
Bill Clintion, I heard?
Laurence Bodenmann 32:35
Bill Clinton also, yeah. Tara Cox, a pioneer in the teaching world, more recently. So yeah.
Ludovic Tendron 32:45
Very interesting. Well, thank you very much for sharing the story of Gandhi with us and the history of Zenith Watches. I'm sure that people listening to the podcast will find it very interesting. I hope that we'll be able to meet one day and I will be able to see this nice collection of watches that you keep very dearly in Switzerland. In the meantime, I wish you all the best, Laurence, and good luck.
Laurence Bodenmann 33:20
Thank you, and with pleasure to see you again.
Ludovic Tendron 33:28
I hope you've enjoyed this interview. There are more coming with different CEOs, with different background stories. Stay tuned. You can follow us on www.ludovic.online. See you soon.
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